Inconsistency Exploited

by Justin Longo | 8:23 am, December 11, 2009 | 16 Comments

I feel bad for minarchists / delusional limited government lovers / constitutionalists / whatever you want to call them. Because when you don’t apply first principles fully and to their logical conclusions, you are forced to bite many bullets — bullets that an intelligent leftist can easily exploit.

Let me give you a simple example. You’ll often hear folks in the “tea party” crowd protest the impending government takeover of health care. Among the reasons for being against socialized medicine, the inconsistent tea partier will invoke morality.

A popular line of thinking goes like this: “I should not be forced to buy politically controlled health insurance simply because I’m alive and breathing.” Another goes this way, “How come Nancy Pelosi is allowed to point a gun at me and force me to buy a product from her, but I can’t point a gun in my neighbor’s face and force him to buy a product from me?”

Truth be told, both arguments are valid. And if made from someone who was actually consistent, they’d have merit. However, coming from the mouths of limited government (a.k.a. central planning and taxation only for things they like) tea party people, it’s rubbish. If I were an intelligent leftist, I would easily point out the inconsistency in a conversation that would go like this:

Tea Partier (TP): Obama care is immoral because Nancy Pelosi and friends are forcing us to buy politically controlled health insurance just because we’re alive.

Intelligent Leftist (IL): You believe it is immoral for Congress to pass a law forcing every American to buy whatever Congress considers to be health insurance? I don’t understand.

TP: Yeah. How come the stupid liberals in Congress are allowed to stick guns in our faces and force us to buy a product from them when I can’t stick a gun in my neighbor’s face and force him to buy a product from me? Where do they get off with this type of power? It is SOOO unconstitutional!! And besides, I’m a man. I shouldn’t be forced to pay for a woman’s c-section or birth control! And she shouldn’t be forced to pay for my Extenze! It’s unfair!

IL: No, it is absolutely fair! You are better off if you buy health insurance. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to force that on you? Besides, there are plenty of things that you are forced to purchase under threat of jail that you tea partiers don’t seem to mind.

TP: No way! We don’t believe in that type of governmental power… it’s UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!

IL: What’s the difference between you being forced to purchase health insurance for your own good and you being forced to purchase roads and road repair for your own good? You don’t seem to mind that Governor Bill Ritter has what you call a gun to your head, forcing you to buy road construction from him. You also don’t seem to mind that the local police chief forces you to buy his services. How do you explain that?

TP: Well, that’s all okay. We don’t mind paying for those vital services, we need those things.

IL: So you don’t mind being forced to buy things against your will, as long as they are services you approve of. That’s convenient. I happen to approve of forcing everyone to buy health care. Surely you wouldn’t also reject forcing everyone in a school district to buy the services of their local schools would you?

TP: Well, that’s different! Kids need to be educated!

IL: I don’t see how that’s any different than health care. Roads, police, fire, schools, health care and the like are all things that benefit everyone. We are all better off if we are forced to buy them. You can’t be a freeloader!

TP: But….. but….

IL: It’s pretty obvious that you would like to just pick and choose what you are paying for. You can’t have it both ways, it doesn’t work like that.

….This is when a consistent person steps in and says, “Yes, we all would prefer to pay only for those goods and services we found worthy of our hard earned money. And no that’s not possible with government. But I’ll give you a hint as to what institution allows for everyone to purchase only what they want, and to never be stolen from, no matter the pretense….”

MARKETS YOU FOOLS!

Category: Philosophy, Rule of Law

Comments

travis
December 12th, 2009 @ 11:29 am

And yet, Mr. Principle has no problem riding his bike on those same roads, himself.

If you were really as principled as you fantasize yourself being, wouldn’t you eschew riding on roads funded by government theft in the form of taxation, and instead ride at a privately-owned, privately-funded velodrome or on privately-built trails/roads on privately-owned land?

Your own hypocrisy is showing…
JustinAC
December 13th, 2009 @ 10:29 am

Are you on crack? If I decided to live my life completely abstaining from using, touching, or taking part in anything the government had a hand in, I would have to float out to the middle of the ocean on a raft. The government’s reach permeates every facet of our lives — and that’s the problem. If I were to live how you propose, I would have to abstain from eating almost all the food that can be found in the grocery store (farm subsidies), find a privately owned river or stream for water to drink (gov’t controlled resource), pretty much sit in one place as moving around and not stepping on gov’t controlled land is nearly impossible, etc etc. So basically, you telling me that you I should live like that is essentially telling me that I should die. Thanks. Obviously in order to stay alive in the United States, I have to touch, live on, drive on, stand on, eat, drink — government owned / controlled / subsidized things. Do I wish it were like this? Absolutely not. Will I do my best to persuade folks that we don’t have to live like this? Absolutely. And that is the difference between me and tea partiers. I don’t advocate legal theft for the things I like. I simply don’t advocate legal theft for anything. Central planning is just as inefficient at making law and protection services as it is trying to feed our country. Let’s do without it entirely.
James
December 13th, 2009 @ 11:52 am

I am teaching my children the virtues of capitalism,ie private land ownership,private profits,compitition for natural resources and market sales et.Fortunately my children are naturaly competitive and industrious as my goal for them is to one day own and profit from the means of survival needed by all of humanity.Of course my children are not likely to accomplish this goal in their lifetimes,but as they teach their children and grandchildren the virtues of hoarding resources and wealth, my progeny will one day be able to claim a sizeable portion of the earth as our private property.I look forward to the day when my offspring control such vast amounts of natural wealth that we are able to carefully select the individuals,corporations and cultures we engage in commerce with.In fact,my dream for my family is that they will own so much capital and natural wealth that we will be able to obstain from commerce completely.Of course that will mean that the people whose survival depends upon commerce with my family will have to seek commerce elsehere ,and of course if they are unable to find other viable sources of commerce they will die.I have no problem with that as it is my belief that the world is over populated with useless eaters anyway.Even if I am wrong about the over population issue,it will be good for my family if billions of potential competitors for my family\’s wealth simply die off.Indeed it is my dream that my family establish a final NEW WORLD ORDER,in which my progeny decides who lives and who dies merly by claiming private ownership over the bulk of the earths resources,and then using those resources as we see fit.Only capitalism will make this dream possible !
James
December 13th, 2009 @ 1:05 pm

As citezens of a potentialy free nation our fear and loathing of state managed resources stems from the fact that we have allowed the apparatasis charged with the management of state affairs to become the state.The government in America was never intended to be the state;we the people comprise the state not our government servants ! State owned and managed resources belong to we the people,not to our government,nor to the greedy amongst us who would like to claim ownership over our common resources,therby either making us pay dearly for those resources,or if they see fit, depriving us of those resources.

A privately owned nation can not be a nation,but only a land of people inprisoned by only what they can afford to privately own,and enslaved to those who own the resources needed by all to survive.
travis
December 13th, 2009 @ 6:17 pm

I see…so in other words, you compromise your principles in order to exist in the real world.

But back to the bicycling – do you ride your bike on public roads and public lands? Unlike commuting to work on public roads, sidewalks, or other byways, there is no requirement for you to use publicly-owned property or infrastructure for this activity. You engage in this activity through a fully free choice – you are not compelled to do it, nor do you participate in it as a means to a vital end (such as working to put food on the table). If you do use public roads and lands, why?

If you do, why do you not (as mentioned above) join a private velodrome or bike on privately-built trails on privately-owned land? If such facilities are not available, are too expensive for your means, or simply do not satisfy your personal preferences for such things, why do you not (as a capitalist) establish your own? It would still regrettably involve the state (building codes, zoning, taxation, and assorted regulatory crap), but it would still be a much smaller compromise on your principles. Even better, it would show you putting your money where your mouth is, and thereby make your arguments to principle more persuasive than your usual impotent, self-righteous griping.
travis
December 13th, 2009 @ 6:20 pm

James, I sincerely hope you someday live in the private-property-free utopia you seek.
JustinAC
December 14th, 2009 @ 10:21 am

I don’t see how me choosing to live and not die is compromising my principles. Like I said earlier, if I wanted to die, I could live completely without government interference. If everyone who wished to relieve themselves of the burden of the state chose to kill themselves off, that wouldn’t do the movement much good would it? As far as bike riding goes, that is a poor example. Yes, it’s a choice on my part to ride my bike around. But it’s also a choice on my part to do pretty much everything else I do on a daily basis. I eat at government regulated restaurants, while eating government regulated food. I buy clothes from government regulated stores, that probably received some sort of subsidy or protection from the state. Bike riding is just one of the thousands of interactions I have with the state on a daily basis. My job at the Independence Institute is also a conscious choice. I choose to work for a non-profit, making very little money because it is the cause that I believe it.

So you wanna talk about putting money where my mouth is — look at my job. We receive voluntarily donated funds ONLY and NONE of us here make anywhere near the kind of money would be making if we were in the private sector. Hell, I could make more money with a government job, but I would never choose to live off stolen money.

Although I cannot literally live without government interfering with me, I can choose to take a job that has almost no government interference at all. In fact, our job is to fight government. And I can tell you that although I make no money, and will never make decent money doing this, I will never do anything else. I choose to fight the state for a living, just as long as I make enough money to buy government regulated food. And perhaps, if we do our jobs well enough, one day we won’t have to buy government regulated food.
JustinAC
December 14th, 2009 @ 10:36 am

And since Travis is so obsessed with me riding a bike for fun, I’d love to know what the difference is between riding my bike on the roads for fun and me driving my car on the roads to go and do something fun? What’s the difference?
ILoveTea
December 14th, 2009 @ 1:35 pm

Possibly instead of making up a \"Tea Partier conversation\" as you would see it happening, you should actually have one – or maybe several.

Yes, I\’m pissed that I may be forced to purchase health insurnce – for many reasons.

And yes, I\’m pissed that I was forced to pay for four \"American Reinvestment & Recovery Act\" signs with in 1 mile of my house.

I\’m pissed about the massive amounts of money that was dumped into Colorado on my dime that has resulted in non-stop road construction on roads that just don\’t need it.

I\’m pissed about a lot things.

Shall we just sit on our hands and not open our mouths because we will be protesting on government funded streets? Where will that get us?

Or should we take a stand against the MASSIVE amounts of unconstitutional legislation being thrown at us EVERY DAY.

We\’ve been quiet too long. But we\’ve got to start somewhere. This is not an all or nothing battle.
travis
December 14th, 2009 @ 8:45 pm

I’m only “obsessed” with your bike riding, Justin, because you refuse to address the question. As usual.

You really don’t like being pinned down on the finer points of your principles, do you? So much easier to preen.
JustinAC
December 14th, 2009 @ 11:11 pm

Yeah Travis, you are really pinning me down. Pointing out one activity I take part in, of the thousands that interact with public property. And since you think you are being clever with the whole velodrome thing, congratulations on knowing what a velodrome is. I am very impressed. However, you obviously haven’t looked too far into it as velodromes are used for track cycling, not road cycling. I don’t ride track.

Again, if you’d like me to die, just man up and come out and say it. Otherwise, be consistent for once and come up with a list of the thousands of activities I take part in that have some interaction with government. And here’s a hint: I used to play in an adult softball league that most likely fell under city and county REGULATIONS!
travis
December 14th, 2009 @ 11:52 pm

Oh, please. Nobody is talking about you dying except you, Justin. Surely you can come up with a less transparent strawman than that when trying to avoid addressing the actual question.

The evasion doesn’t impress me. You really can’t apply your abstract principles to concrete situations, can you? Every time I challenge you with a thought experiment or a specific example, you dodge and weave and do everything you can to avoid addressing the question – when addressing it should be a trivial matter, if you really understand what you claim to hold as your principles. Indeed, it would make for a much more interesting discussion, and who knows, you might actually be persuasive to your audience that way.

Unfortunately, I suspect you don’t really understand what you claim to believe, certainly not as well as you pretend (or perhaps sincerely believe) you do. Your evasions certainly give me no reason to believe otherwise.

Instead of parroting Rothbard, maybe you ought to consider spending some time working through how the principles you spout can be applied to real-world problems. You know, taking those lofty principles to their logical conclusions…
JustinAC
December 15th, 2009 @ 8:20 am

You still haven’t yet explained how I’ve evaded your bike question. You brought up the fact that I voluntarily choose to ride my bike on public lands. Then when I respond that that “gotcha” is completely inadequate because it is just one activity that I “choose” to participate in that takes place under governmental jurisdiction, that evidently isn’t enough. Which is exactly your MO for everything I post. I write, you respond with some pathetic attempt at a “gotcha,” I respond to that, then you predictably say I evaded it. How impressive.

The truth is, velodromes are for track cycling and trails are for mountain biking — neither of which I have any interest in. Just like cycling on public roads, I’ve played basketball in public school gyms, played softball on publically built fields, went to Rockies and Nuggets games – both of which used public funds, and the list goes on. Apparently, my point about every single aspect of our life coming under the jurisdiction of the state is not enough for you.

I have been taxed since I started working at 15. We all have. This is the real world we are forced to live under. That money stolen from us has gone to build the roads I drive and ride on and the fields I’ve played on. And listen to this gotcha, every time the government was nice enough to send me a portion of my own money back in the form of a tax return, I accepted it.

My dream is that one day individuals will recognize that every single person does indeed own themselves. Without that recognition, legal extortion will forever continue. And with this pervasive legal extortion comes the tyrannical majority rule we all deal with in every single aspect of our lives.

Instead of choosing to make money like most people, I’ve chosen to take a job making almost no money to spread the gospel of free markets. (which you refuse to address because apparently that is not good enough for you). I’ve helped create the Liberty on the Rocks freedom movement through my co-founding and my continuing work with Amanda and Joe. Again, not good enough for you evidently. In addition, I argue with irrational statists like you online. All of which I hope one day bears fruit and we make some headway to living in a voluntary society.

Perhaps that won’t happen in the next 100 years, but then again, that is no reason not to lay the groundwork now. I have been reading and studying Austrian economics, philosophy, and voluntaryism for 9 years now. It’s not like I picked up a Rothbard book the other day. This has been and will continue to be a lifelong quest.

Unfortunately, people like you will continue to fight against people like me. You will forever advocate that we steal from others, regulate their lives, and centrally plan for the goods and services you want. You’ll never stop to consider that the market can provide all goods and services, and that emergent (spontaneous) order is always preferable to immoral central planning.

The logical conclusions you are too afraid to reach are in plain sight. Once you finally grow a pair, you will see them. Until then, sleep well knowing that even you don’t believe you own your own body. What a pathetic way to go through life.
JustinAC
December 15th, 2009 @ 8:54 am

And before you return with a predictable “evasive” comment, do yourself a favor and read some folks who are completely committed to liberty: http://www.fr33agents.com/

And the social network with some good stuff: http://fr33agents.ning.com/

Although all that owning yourself stuff might be over your head.
travis
December 16th, 2009 @ 12:49 am

Simple: my question at the beginning was, given that you bicycle as a choice, not a necessity, you are not being compelled by the actions of the state to do so on infrastructure built with money taken from citizens in the form of taxation (as is the case with transportation to work – if you want to get to work to pay the bills and put food on the table, you have no viable alternative under present real-world conditions but to travel via such infrastructure), why do you not put your principles in action and create a private bicycling venue where you and others may ride without compromising their anti-statist principles? It would make your arguments about principle much more persuasive if you chose to actually put those principles into practice.

So, I asked you a simple question and gave you a perfect opening to demonstrate your full understanding of your principles and how to apply them in the real world in a non-textbook situation, and you fly off the handle because you can’t tolerate being challenged. If you believe that your emotional outbursts in earlier comments constitute rational discourse, well, I guess I’m wasting my time trying to prod you into actually defending your principles in a way that might persuade others to take a closer look. It’s going to take you a lot longer than a hundred years to persuade anyone to adopt any principles you hold dear if you continue to react with juvenile indignance to the slightest challenge.

Like most Libertarians, you are your own ideology’s worst enemy.
JustinAC
December 16th, 2009 @ 10:03 am

Since you are willing to give me the benefit of the doubt as to working within real world conditions… how could I possibly create the real world conditions to ride 100 miles outdoors on entirely private property. Your potential answer of “velodrome” is wrong, since velodromes are for fixed gear track bikes only. Do you propose that I buy Lookout Mountain, Deer Creek Canyon, Golden Gate State Canyon from the state? Why would the state sell me any of their land? Or do you want me to use the coercive powers of eminent domain to take the land of people who do not want me to ride through their property? What you propose is not possible in real world conditions. Much like merely LIVING and not dying would be impossible without running into the state.

Furthermore, the real answer to your silly question is, why do you focus on bike riding on public land for fun, yet disregard the other 1,000 activities I drive on roads for in order to do for fun. I drive to the gym to workout. I drive to a friends house to hang out. I drive to restaurants to eat dinner. I drive to other parts of the state to race my bike. What’s the difference? You don’t have an answer for that either.

And finally, you still refuse to recognize the true money where your mouth is aspect of my life. You are afraid to even say it because it proves your whole bicycling example moot. And honestly, I’m done trying to prove myself to you. I’ve demonstrated with my livelihood that I live my principles of non-aggression and anti-statism. Much more than you can say for yourself.

You will predictably reply with your one liner of evasive, despite me completely demolishing all your impotent arguments and that’s okay. You’ve done in several times before on this site to other people. It’s the only way you know how to debate someone, and sadly, it’s just as pathetic as your viewpoint on legal extortion and violence.

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